Talk:Blu/Sch A.K.A. the Vampire Mage Guide by Smudgey
=Requested Move= Clearly written as By One Author. Moving and adding will bring in line with guide policy as a Named Guide. --Volkai 14:12, 26 June 2009 (UTC) Resolution: Moved. -- 05:15, 29 June 2009 (UTC) Sublimation HP has Diminishing Returns You posted this comment: This is an amazing thing to abuse as a bluemage. Since bluemages have more HP than MP than most mages we actually get the most to offer from this ability than any other mage, more details later. This is actually false if you were to do the math for sublimation More HP has a diminishing return because of the time it takes to actually fully charge it. Here's an example of what I mean: Using 890 and 1298 base HP: 1298 * 25% = 324 MP / 2 = f162 ticks * 3 = 486 seconds + 30 = 516 seconds 3600 (Seconds in an hour) / 516 = f6 6 * 324 = 1944 MP/hr 890 * 25% = 222 MP / 2 = f111 ticks * 3 = 333 seconds + 30 = 363 seconds 3600 (Seconds in an hour) / 363 = f9 9 * 222 = 1998 MP/hr Refutation It is interesting to me that your subject statement (that increased HP for Sublimation has diminishing returns) is technically correct, while the claim you make with your numbers (which would more accurately be that increased HP has negative returns) is not. Your numbers are misleading because you ignore the decimals when you use f6 and f9. The results are actually: 3600(seconds/hour) / 516 (seconds/sublimation cycle) = 6.97674~ 3600(seconds/hour) / 363 (seconds/sublimation cycle) = 9.9173553~ Round it up to the nearest cycle instead of just cutting off decimals and you get- 7 (cycles in just over an hour) * 516 (seconds/sublimation cycle) = 3612 / 60 = 60.2 = 1 hour 12 seconds = 324mp * 7 = 2268MP every 1 hours 12 seconds. 10 (cycles in just over an hour) * 363 (seconds/sublimation cycle = 3630 / 60 = 60.5 = 1 hour 30 seconds = 222mp * 10 = 2220MP every 1 hours 30 seconds. When you look at it this way, 2268MP/1h0m12s vs. 2220MP/1h0m30s, the higher amount of HP does indeed lead to better MP returns. Now, just to make things interesting, let's look as some extreme numbers instead, and spread out over ten hours instead of one. Using 100, 1000 and 10000 base HP: (Note, I am rounding up ticks instead of cutting off the decimals with an f number.) 100 * 25% = 25 MP / 2 = 13 ticks * 3 = 39 seconds + 30 = 69 seconds 36000 (Seconds in ten hours) / 69 = 521.739 521 * 25 = 13025 MP/09h59m09s = ~1303MP/hr 532 * 25 = 13050 MP/10h00m18s = ~1305MP/hr (1303+1305)/2 = 1304.0 avg 1000 * 25% = 250 MP / 2 = 125 ticks * 3 = 375 seconds + 30 = 405 seconds 36000 (Seconds in ten hours) / 405 = 88.888~ 88 * 250 = 22000 MP/09h54m00s = ~2200MP/hr 89 * 250 = 22250 MP/10h00m45s = ~2225MP/hr (2200+2225)/2 = 2212.5 avg 10000 * 25% = 2500 MP / 2 = 1250 ticks * 3 = 3750 seconds + 30 = 3780 seconds 36000 (Seconds in ten hours) / 3780 = 9.5238 9 * 2500 = 22500 MP/09h27m00s = ~2250MP/hr 10* 2500 = 25000 MP/10h30m00s = ~2500MP/hr (2250+2500)/2 = 2375.0 avg 2212.5 - 1304.0 = diff +908.5 2375.0 - 2212.5 = diff +162.5 * I would welcome it if someone wanted to refine these numbers for more precise per-hour numbers. So, as you can see... yes, there is a diminishing positive return, but you never cross into a negative change in efficiency. As far as Sublimation is concerned, more HP is always better... at least, until it's restoring all of your MP. --Volkai 21:30, September 19, 2009 (UTC) ---- Why would you round up? I gave 1 hour as simple reference and in 1 hour if there is a fraction you can't use that as you need to go into the next hour to use it, thus I floored my numbers. In your examples you have to go over a given time to make the rounding up work. Over a long enough amount of time more HP "can" win out. I say can because that requires perfect timing with HP gear swaps. Also you need to be doing perfect sublimations nonstop for that time because as soon as your start to screw up this becomes less true or completely false depending on the delays.Zagen 20:11, June 30, 2010 (UTC) :Your method resulted in a misleading conclusion. Mine did not. To make your results accurate you need to either state the actual time taken for your final numbers (state how much time is not used up because you don't do a last cycle) or state the amount of MP you would be able to produce in the leftover time by performing one last sublimation and pulling MP from it at the end of an hour, or otherwise somehow account for the remainder times of 8m24s and 5m33s. --Volkai 13:33, July 1, 2010 (UTC) ---- Here's some math to back that up: 3600(seconds/hour) / 516 (seconds/sublimation cycle) = 6.97674~ 3600(seconds/hour) / 363 (seconds/sublimation cycle) = 9.9173553~ Cutting off the extra fraction of a cycle, you must revise the cycle time and you get- 6 (full cycles in under an hour) * 516 (seconds/sublimation cycle) = 3096 / 60 = 51.6 = 51 minutes 36 seconds = 324mp * 6 = 1944MP every 51 minutes 36 seconds. :Dead time: 8 minutes 24 seconds. ::Converting excess time to MP: 8m24s/3s*2mp=336MP + 1944MP=2280MP/Real Hour. 9 (full cycles in under an hour) * 363 (seconds/sublimation cycle) = 3267 / 60 = 54.45 = 54 minutes 27 seconds = 222mp * 9 = 1998MP every 54 minutes 27 seconds. :Dead time: 5 minutes 33 seconds. ::converting excess time to MP: 5m33s/3s*2mp=222MP + 1998MP=2220MP/Real Hour. Now, it's been a while since I last played with these numbers, so I may have forgotten to leave 30 seconds of 0mp/tick hange time before beginning the final Sublimation. However, 30s/10s-per-tick*2mp-per-tick = 20 less MP for both equations, final results remain in favor of more HP, at 2260MP/Real Hour vs. 2200MP/Real Hour.--Volkai 14:07, July 1, 2010 (UTC) More on the /Sch effects Through even just some minimal testing on my 47 now BLU, Dark Arts affects magic accuracy of various drain effects by a very noticeable amount. I noticed higher amounts and more consistent ones for Digest, Blood Drain, and a few others. I believe it will also affect spells elementally charged, but haven't tested this yet. did seem to boost a bursting Bomb Toss. But i would need to do that more than 4 times i think. Scholar seems to be the same thing for mages as Warior is for DDs, a general all points booster. The difference being that if you die doing peak damage on mage jobs, with say blm/sch, people think your suicidal, but if your SAM/WAR, thats just the best way to peak damage, even if you do die more. What a silly double standard. There are some differences between /war and /sch that explain this 'double standard'. First off, /war has been around since before there was an American release. /Sch, on the other hand, is one of the two newest support job options. Second, /war provides benefits that apply primarily to Damage Over Time sources, rather than one-off spike damage. A Black Mage's primary damage output is spike damage, through nukes, and /sch doesn't offer all that much to boost a Black Mage's slip damage spells (Poison, Bio, Shock, Rasp, Frost, Burn, Choke, Drown.) The reason this is important is because spike damage has a corresponding enmity spike that DoT lacks. Additionally, most jobs that use /war have some measure of survivability, which Black Mage - despite having Drain, Bind, and four Sleep spells- sorely lacks*. Thus, a Black Mage stands to profit more from a support job with defensive spells. --Volkai 13:11, February 11, 2010 (UTC) * If you are inclined to disagree that Black Mage sorely lacks survivability, consider that soloing BLMs sub Ninja.